The Jen Jordan Interview

A state senator from Atlanta speaking frankly about guns, gangs and Buckhead sausage-making at the capitol's back rooms.

Barring something unexpected, State Senator Jennifer Jordan has a clear shot at the Democratic nomination for Georgia Attorney General this year. Her primary opponent, Charlie Bailey just jumped out of the race to run for lieutenant governor instead.

Jordan and I spoke at length in September, before the results of Atlanta’s election had been resolved, before Bill White began saying the quiet parts out loud about the motivations behind the Buckhead cityhood movement, and before the Omicron wave of COVID-19 sent us back to the bunkers.

I’d been holding on to this — and a similar interview with Bailey — for a rainy day. I may profile Bailey later: his interview remains interesting.

Today, as the legislature reopens — and all their fundraising websites close — I think you may find a frank conversation with Jordan valuable. We discuss the politics behind the Buckhead city push, the anxieties of Atlanta voters about crime, and the benefits and risks of operating the Attorney General’s office assertively to fight violence, fraud and environmental damage.

As always, the transcript is edited for length, clarity, and to ensure we both sound as smart as people hope we are.

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“It's like all of this stuff that we've never had to deal with before. And oh yeah: we've got guns everywhere. It's kind of this perfect storm.”

George Chidi: I'm grateful for your time; it's precious and I don't want to waste it. What I'd like to discuss is basically what's going on with crime in Atlanta, and what the role of an attorney general might be in getting at some of this. Given the fact that you're also a state senator who represents a fairly significant part of Atlanta, that makes this a much more interesting conversation.

State Sen. Jen Jordan: Yeah, yeah. I mean, look: the homicide rate is incredible right now. And, you know, after we passed over 100 deaths, I went through all the people who had been murdered this year. And I think 95 out of 100 were shot. It's gun violence. But you don't hear anybody talking about guns. Right?

GC: I wonder how much of that is people throwing their hands up in the air and saying that the political conditions are such that there's nothing to be done?

JJ: But you can’t think like that, right? I mean, we've got a serious problem here. Clearly, that is affecting not only the people in the city of Atlanta, but the people in this state. And so, you know, it's imperative, I think, for elected officials – for people who just care about their communities – to drill down and say, “Okay, what's really the problem,” right? Because you can't solve something if you're not trying to look at all the variables that may be at play. And in terms of what's going on in Atlanta, in terms of crime, there's not one thing, I mean, it's a complex kind of multi-factorial kind of thing.

GC: I completely agree with you. I just wanted to ask you just, what do you think those factors are?

JJ: I think COVID. People are at home. Secondarily, you have all of these kinds of social services that shut down that are usually the social safety nets, and a lot of these communities that are at a lot higher likelihood of gun violence. You have schools that weren't open for a long time. So kids — especially older kids — were left to their own devices because a lot of them had single parents that are working.

And so you have all of this stuff coming together: social isolation, people worried about jobs, the economy kind of going off the cliff there for a while. It's like all of this stuff that we've never had to deal with before. And oh yeah: we've got guns everywhere. It's kind of this perfect storm. And it's not just happening in Atlanta, you know. It's happening nationwide. That's why we have to step back and say, “All right, so we know that a lot of things are going into this.” There's not going to be a silver bullet or some kind of panacea. We can't put our head in the sand. We have to look at every variable and deal with that and say, “What can we do specifically with respect to this.”

We may not get it right, but that doesn't mean you don't try to push for a solution that could work.

GC: I'm gratified to hear everything that you just said. The three points that you just made I think are incredibly vital; that it's a bunch of different things, that you can't throw your hands up in the air and say there's nothing we can do, and that we have to have room for error.

JJ: Right! And that's it, we've got to give each other grace, right? Because if you don't, then people won't try anymore.

Or you'll hear a lot of the stuff you hear politically: “Well, you know, you're not going to be able to get that through” or “there's not the political will for that.” Well, it's got to start somewhere. And you know, it's one of those things where, if you push hard enough, and you get people behind it, you're going to get to a point where there is the political will.

It may take some time, but I think we all agree that this is a really serious problem, in that it's worth having to get in there and fight for what we think might actually help folks.

“In other states, they filed against gun manufacturers, because, they believe that they're unsafe. If we find that there is something that is causing this gun violence … the Attorney General has the ability to go after them in civil court ...”

GC: So, what do you want to do? Let's say you get elected. What do you start with?

JJ: Just to step back a little bit, in terms of the Attorney General. It's interesting, because it's framed a lot of times as though the Attorney General is like the top cop in the state, or the top law enforcement person. In Georgia, we have a very strong local prosecution model. So, the district attorneys are the ones that will prosecute the crimes, unless there is an issue of recusal or conflict. And then normally what has happened is that it goes up to the Attorney General's office, and then they give it to another district attorney to actually prosecute, although the Attorney General can take that on if he or she wants to.

So, you have to understand the role of the Attorney General, in terms of crime and criminal prosecution. That I think is one of the things that is key with respect to that role. It’s almost being the spokes of the wheel, in terms of bringing these various district attorneys together – law enforcement, federal prosecutors – having them all come to the table. Because we're all seeing the same thing.

I mean, like I said, this isn't just some isolated thing that's happening in one neighborhood in the city of Atlanta. This is affecting a lot of people in this state, and all over the country. So why wouldn't we bring all of our resources together, and then kind of go from there? That's one thing, in terms of the Attorney General actually pulling the resources together and getting people to the table, and talking about what the solutions are.

Then really, when we figure out what the issues are, the Attorney General has the ability to file civil lawsuits. You've seen some of that in terms of opioids, for example, right? In other states, they filed against gun manufacturers, because, they believe that they're unsafe. If we find that there is something that is causing this gun violence that can be attributed to an entity or an individual or somebody outside of the state or even inside of the state, the Attorney General has the ability to go after them in civil court and try to get redress for the people that he or she represents.

GC: That's a tough fight, I have to say. It sounds like it, anyway.

JJ: Well, that's the whole point. Right? I mean, when you represent the people of the state, and when you have the power of the state behind you, it takes on a different form. It's not criminal, because it's in civil court. But it's a civil prosecution; it is a prosecution, you know, of an entity. And the whole point is, if you've hurt people, or if you've wronged people and it's caused damages, then then you're responsible for those damages. And I think we need more of that in the state, not less. Definitely at the state level, because district attorneys can't do that. District attorneys can't go into civil court and hold bad actors responsible in terms of money damages. You know as well as I do that a lot of times, the only thing that a lot of these bad actors will respond to or care about is the bottom line profit margin:  whether or not it's going to cost them money.

GC: I agree. Completely. What are people telling you? You're out on the campaign trail. People are talking to you. I'm specifically interested in how people are thinking about violent crime right now. What's the conversation sound like from your end?

JJ: It's been interesting. I think folks are a little bit scared. And these are really uneasy times. I think how we feel about the economy or how we feel about COVID is feeding into kind of this fear around violent crime in the city. But what I try to talk to folks about is that this isn't a Buckhead problem. This isn't a North Atlanta problem. This is happening everywhere. We've got to think more holistically. This isn’t just going on in your street or in your backyard, but it's happening to everybody who lives here.

So, you know, that's how we have to approach it. Which is why the whole Buckhead thing is kind of crazy. But if we actually show them the numbers in terms of crime and what's actually happening, and we get away kind of from some of the headlines – and maybe not even headlines, really: social media –

people are reasonable. They just want somebody to do something. I think that's what it comes down to. I think folks feel like people aren't doing anything. And they're just so desperate for someone to step up and lead.

“I mean, we at least used to agree — we could agree — on facts, right?”

GC: I have to tell you, I find that dangerous, This idea of “just do something” without any rigor associated with it.

JJ: You got to know what the problem is. You can't put a Band-Aid on something. You've got to say, “Well, that's a nice solution. But what is it a solution to?” if whatever it is isn't actually one of the root causes of crime in the city. So, I completely agree with you.

But I do think I think that's how people feel.

And, you know, the mayoral candidates, city council candidates, they need to take that into consideration, you know, when they're out on the trail, that there is a lot of uneasiness and insecurity, if people just want a leader, it can be dangerous, because just “doing something” isn't always right.

GC: So, I'm with you when I say that I think people are persuadable, when they hear facts. I'm operating under the presumption that if I put the numbers in front of somebody, that they'll accept them. On the other hand, there's this tremendous skepticism of any sort of authority; that I'll put numbers in front of somebody and they'll question the numbers because they don't like what they're seeing. I don't know what to do about that.

JJ: You know, it is problematic. I mean, we at least used to agree — we could agree — on facts, right? I mean, we may disagree on policy and approach and all that stuff. But we could at least say four plus four equals eight and agree.

The fact that we seem to be dealing with different facts makes what we're trying to do that much harder. And what I've seen is that there are these kinds of influencers out there in the community, all over the place all over Atlanta, that people are going to get their information from, and these influencers are causing people to get really upset, and react emotionally.

It’s one of those things where ... on the one hand, I get it. Look. We're dealing with a really serious problem. But on the other hand, we get some adults in the room and you’ve just got to figure out next steps because the city just has too much on the line across the board, whether you're talking about economically or in terms of our people. I mean, the city of Buckhead thing is a real threat. A real threat.

“(On Buckhead) The fact that they're even playing around with it is so dangerous to the health and vitality of the city.”

GC: Do you really think so? I need to ask you this because you're the subject matter expert on this legislatively. Do they have a chance?

JJ: Yeah, they do. They do.

More on the politics of Buckhead, civil lawsuits as an enforcement mechanism and partisan politics at the Attorney General’s office after the break.